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	<title>Comments on: Mithras Myths</title>
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		<title>By: beastrabban</title>
		<link>http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-251</link>
		<dc:creator>beastrabban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-251</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the reply, CJ. I&#039;d come across news of Rook Hawkins critiquing Acharya S. over at Frank&#039;s blog on the Rational Responders. It surprised me, as I&#039;d expected that the RRS&#039; belief in the Christ myth would have made them very sympathetic to Acharya S&#039; irrational nonsense, but that obviously wasn&#039;t the case.

Thanks for the info on the Calendar of 354, and that the games celebrated on behalf of the &#039;Invictus&#039; would have been for Sol Invictus, Roger. I&#039;m glad you&#039;ve managed to clear that up. Also it&#039;s been interesting having a look at the Calendar itself and its great illustrations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the reply, CJ. I&#8217;d come across news of Rook Hawkins critiquing Acharya S. over at Frank&#8217;s blog on the Rational Responders. It surprised me, as I&#8217;d expected that the RRS&#8217; belief in the Christ myth would have made them very sympathetic to Acharya S&#8217; irrational nonsense, but that obviously wasn&#8217;t the case.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info on the Calendar of 354, and that the games celebrated on behalf of the &#8216;Invictus&#8217; would have been for Sol Invictus, Roger. I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;ve managed to clear that up. Also it&#8217;s been interesting having a look at the Calendar itself and its great illustrations.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Pearse</title>
		<link>http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-249</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Pearse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-249</guid>
		<description>At this point allow me to point everyone to a complete online version of the Chronography of 354 at my site, and specifically of part 6, the calendar, here:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chronography_of_354_06_calendar.htm

As you will quickly see, this lists the state feasts, celebrated by games (CM=circenses missus; remember &#039;panem et circenses&#039;?).  So the Natalis Invicti means a deity who could be uniquely referred to as Invictus who is a state cult.  That pretty much confines us to Sol Invictus.  

The unusual number of games -- 30, as opposed to the 24 for the major earlier deities -- again indicates a later foundation.  It probably indicates the anniversary of the dedication of the temple of Sol Invictus by Aurelian, since other deities which had no defined birthday are listed with a Natalis also.

I find it hard to believe that any of the Christian emperors would institute games in honour of Sol Invictus.  It is therefore much more likely that it is part of Aurelian&#039;s creation of the cult.

The Roman aristocrat Valentinus, for whom this lavishly decorated volume was produced with the aid of a known artist, was clearly a Christian since the volume contained all these ecclesiastical documents.  It also contained the portraits of &#039;our emperors&#039;, Constantius II and the ill-fated Gallus, executed later that year.  (I wish I could think of a way to get colour images of the pictures)

I&#039;m sure that you are aware of the manner in which the emperor Julian the apostate tried to borrow elements from Christianity, so the idea of a reverse borrowing is not impossible.  But the actual reason for Christmas on 25 Dec. does not seem to be known.  All the ancient info dates to half a century later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At this point allow me to point everyone to a complete online version of the Chronography of 354 at my site, and specifically of part 6, the calendar, here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chronography_of_354_06_calendar.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chronography_of_354_06_calendar.htm</a></p>
<p>As you will quickly see, this lists the state feasts, celebrated by games (CM=circenses missus; remember &#8216;panem et circenses&#8217;?).  So the Natalis Invicti means a deity who could be uniquely referred to as Invictus who is a state cult.  That pretty much confines us to Sol Invictus.  </p>
<p>The unusual number of games &#8212; 30, as opposed to the 24 for the major earlier deities &#8212; again indicates a later foundation.  It probably indicates the anniversary of the dedication of the temple of Sol Invictus by Aurelian, since other deities which had no defined birthday are listed with a Natalis also.</p>
<p>I find it hard to believe that any of the Christian emperors would institute games in honour of Sol Invictus.  It is therefore much more likely that it is part of Aurelian&#8217;s creation of the cult.</p>
<p>The Roman aristocrat Valentinus, for whom this lavishly decorated volume was produced with the aid of a known artist, was clearly a Christian since the volume contained all these ecclesiastical documents.  It also contained the portraits of &#8216;our emperors&#8217;, Constantius II and the ill-fated Gallus, executed later that year.  (I wish I could think of a way to get colour images of the pictures)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that you are aware of the manner in which the emperor Julian the apostate tried to borrow elements from Christianity, so the idea of a reverse borrowing is not impossible.  But the actual reason for Christmas on 25 Dec. does not seem to be known.  All the ancient info dates to half a century later.</p>
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		<title>By: CJ (cj.23)</title>
		<link>http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ (cj.23)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-246</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s worth noting that Rook Hawkins of the Rational response Squad has now VERY severely critiqued Acharya S on his blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s worth noting that Rook Hawkins of the Rational response Squad has now VERY severely critiqued Acharya S on his blog.</p>
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		<title>By: beastrabban</title>
		<link>http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator>beastrabban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-91</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Roger. I&#039;ve been talking about the 25th December as the date of the festival of Sol Invictus with friends, and some of them are extremely sceptical that there was a festival of Sol Invictus on that date. This seems to contradict the clear statement of the Chronography of 354, which in the translations in Cumont and Manfred Claussen is clearly that of Sol Invictus. However, I&#039;ve been told that in the original inscription, the &#039;Sol&#039; isn&#039;t mentioned, with the Chronography merely stating that it was the festival of the Invictus. Now the word &lt;i&gt; Invictus &lt;/i&gt; - &#039;Unconquered&#039; was applied to a number of godsm and so needn&#039;t necessarily refer to the god Sol. From what I understand, and I gather that some Christians have checked this with Dr. Ronald Hutton, of Bristol University, the author of &lt;i&gt; Stations of the Sun &lt;/i&gt; which explores the origins of traditional European festivals, the Roman festival of Sol was in October. The nearest Roman religious feast to the 25th December was on the 21st, which could possibly extend as far as the 23rd, but no later. 

It would seem from this that there&#039;s thus no secure evidence linking Sol with the date of Christmas either. As for Invictus being a pagan festival, that&#039;s still very much a possibility, but it could be part of the pagan revival that was beginning to take shape after the legalisation of Christianity, and could be the result of a conscious, but unofficial, pagan borrowing for a pagan cult from Christianity. 

I don&#039;t know if any of that makes sense to you. I&#039;d certainly appreciate hearing your comments on the above possible scenario.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Roger. I&#8217;ve been talking about the 25th December as the date of the festival of Sol Invictus with friends, and some of them are extremely sceptical that there was a festival of Sol Invictus on that date. This seems to contradict the clear statement of the Chronography of 354, which in the translations in Cumont and Manfred Claussen is clearly that of Sol Invictus. However, I&#8217;ve been told that in the original inscription, the &#8216;Sol&#8217; isn&#8217;t mentioned, with the Chronography merely stating that it was the festival of the Invictus. Now the word <i> Invictus </i> &#8211; &#8216;Unconquered&#8217; was applied to a number of godsm and so needn&#8217;t necessarily refer to the god Sol. From what I understand, and I gather that some Christians have checked this with Dr. Ronald Hutton, of Bristol University, the author of <i> Stations of the Sun </i> which explores the origins of traditional European festivals, the Roman festival of Sol was in October. The nearest Roman religious feast to the 25th December was on the 21st, which could possibly extend as far as the 23rd, but no later. </p>
<p>It would seem from this that there&#8217;s thus no secure evidence linking Sol with the date of Christmas either. As for Invictus being a pagan festival, that&#8217;s still very much a possibility, but it could be part of the pagan revival that was beginning to take shape after the legalisation of Christianity, and could be the result of a conscious, but unofficial, pagan borrowing for a pagan cult from Christianity. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if any of that makes sense to you. I&#8217;d certainly appreciate hearing your comments on the above possible scenario.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Pearse</title>
		<link>http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Pearse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-90</guid>
		<description>There appears to be no historical evidence whatever of any connection between Mithras and 25th December.  I&#039;ve been interested in the claim for a while, and nothing appears.  A reference is sometimes given to either Cumont&#039;s Textes et Monumentes or the CIL, but I checked both and neither contains data to support it.

I would hypothesis confusion between Sol Invictus and Mithras, since the dies natalis solis invicti is documented in the Chronography of 354 (and there only, apparently).  This is of course later than the celebration of Christmas, recorded in the Chronography.  However it is hard to believe that the dies was instituted by any of the Christian emperors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There appears to be no historical evidence whatever of any connection between Mithras and 25th December.  I&#8217;ve been interested in the claim for a while, and nothing appears.  A reference is sometimes given to either Cumont&#8217;s Textes et Monumentes or the CIL, but I checked both and neither contains data to support it.</p>
<p>I would hypothesis confusion between Sol Invictus and Mithras, since the dies natalis solis invicti is documented in the Chronography of 354 (and there only, apparently).  This is of course later than the celebration of Christmas, recorded in the Chronography.  However it is hard to believe that the dies was instituted by any of the Christian emperors.</p>
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		<title>By: beastrabban</title>
		<link>http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator>beastrabban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks, Frank. 

I intend to do a bit more about Mithras - specifically, examining the claim that the date of Christmas Day - December 25th - was taken from the cult of Mithras. This claim has been around for over a century, but the evidence for it is actually much weaker than it appears. In fact, it looks like it could well be the other way on - that December 25th was originally a Christian holy day, commemorating our Lord&#039;s birth, but that 19th century scholarship confused the description of the festival from the late Roman sources to produce a false claim that it was originally the holy day of a Roman god.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Frank. </p>
<p>I intend to do a bit more about Mithras &#8211; specifically, examining the claim that the date of Christmas Day &#8211; December 25th &#8211; was taken from the cult of Mithras. This claim has been around for over a century, but the evidence for it is actually much weaker than it appears. In fact, it looks like it could well be the other way on &#8211; that December 25th was originally a Christian holy day, commemorating our Lord&#8217;s birth, but that 19th century scholarship confused the description of the festival from the late Roman sources to produce a false claim that it was originally the holy day of a Roman god.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Walton</title>
		<link>http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mithras-myths/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Walton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I hear a lot about Mithra from the Christ Mythers. Great essay, Beast. Very enlightening!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear a lot about Mithra from the Christ Mythers. Great essay, Beast. Very enlightening!</p>
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